Single bevel vs dual bevel -

summitsitter · 08-25-2010, 09:58 AM

What is the advantages and disadvantages of both?

Standing Bear · 08-26-2010, 03:11 PM

Wow, now that is a million dollar question and just to let you know, I feel like the sailor that is being pushed on the wooden plank waiting for his execution to happen by answering but hey, I have an extensive background when it comes with working with steel so I think I can give this one a shot

I, myself, me and I alone want, did I already say "I" twice, have seen both types of edges and like both of them.

The one thing that comes into play when dealing with single bevel edge is make sure you choose a high quality head that is made of good material. Due to the fact that the edge is much thinner, you need a harder material to help prevent both edge curling, bending and or fracturing. To use one is a matter of personnal preference and believe me, you have to shoot them to see what they can do. Here are the two top single bevel broadhead manufacturers that I have had the opportunity to work with by using and testing their heads:

Red Feather Archery - Phoenix 150 grain
Alaska Bowhunting Supply - Massai 150 grain

When your talking about dual bevel broadheads, well, choose your pick because you have on this web site, as per with the single bevel broadheads, some of the top engineers in the world to deal with. I don't think you'll find any people on here that doesn't believe in this incredible industry and all are willing to help in anyway they can.

And now to throw a third category in the loop, you need to take a long hard look at the Atom broadheads. Matthew, the man behind this incredible technology is an encyclopedia of knowledge when it comes to how his bevels work.

Also, reality says some like and some don't like so its up to you to follow your instincts and please keep asking questions and don't be afraid to try things, that is what makes this place such a great place to be in and listen, enjoy yourself.

I hope no one will let that plank go cause I can't swim !!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

In total respect of everyone participating on this web site.

Daniel

Okie101 · 08-26-2010, 10:19 PM

One advantage for me is...I can sharpen the single bevel easier than a dual...

Another advantage is that the design of the single bevel is to twist more going thru the animal...

I agree with Standing Bear...I like them both..and also what he said about the Atom...

summitsitter · 08-27-2010, 10:38 AM

Thanks guys..I was wondering why so many people where looking and nobody commenting..Thanks for the info..Looks like Red Feather here I come..I have 1 atom laying around I got from somewhere I'll have to give it a shot or two

Arrowds · 08-27-2010, 05:08 PM

Summitsitter.... yep......I've had the very good fortune to have some great conversations with Standing Bear on the subject of grind angle/single/double bevel....and I assure you...Standing Bear is a great teacher/student on the subject himself. His humbleness is as large as the Great North West Territories he resides within.

I'm just a simple math dude...and my math plus testing on real critters... easily has me choosing double bevel over single. I just didn't witness the "Magical" results touted on the single in comparison to the double bevel efforts. Don't get me wrong...single bevel kills critters just as easily/good as double bevel...but I ask questions and look at the forensics...
It's easy....when such discussions arise...you must consider the simple question first. What is the Statistical probability that the single bevel aspect actually delivers the lethal difference?...I'd have a better chance to pick the winning lottery ticket two times in a row....So..in the end....it's again...just a matter of personal preference...Just my humble opinion...

41mag · 08-28-2010, 03:09 AM

Well, I'm not nearly as knowledgable on the facts behind the differences as the above folks, but I will throw in on this for what it's worth.

In looking at the two, or three as pointed out by Standing Bear, side by side, what will be immediately noticed is the differences in the angle on the edges. The single bevel blade will use more of the meat of the edge to produce the cutting surface so to speak than the dual bevel. What this results in is a much stronger edge on the blade.

The easiest way to demonstrate this is to do a simple illustration. Take both hands, and roll your fingers into a light fist with your index finger pointing out. Now put both hands together with all your knuckles touching and your index fingers extended but the tips together. Should look something like the Church and steeple thing you might have done as a kid. Now with your index finger pointing straight up, this would represent a dual edged blade. Now rotate your hands to where your right finger is pointing straight up and your left is at around a 45 degree angle. While not quite exact, this would represent a single bevel edge. Still you can quickly see the differences in the meat, so to speak, behind the single bevel over the dual.

While this might not result in a scalpel sharp edge, it can be sharpened to a darn close one, and it will hold up to a more abusive impact than the dual edge will. These are usually made for heavy bone, thick hide, and tough critters where maximum impact and penetration might be wanted and needed.

Not that the dual edged blades aren't good for this as well, but most are made of much thinner material which enhances the ability to be sharpened more closely to the scalpel type edge. These are routinely used for lighter framed, thinner skinned critters that probably aren't going to eat you or stomp you into a muddy spot.

While there is equal ability of each to penetrate most game, usually the lighter bladed heads carry the dual edges and are primarily sold to folks hunting deer or elk type game. They are made usually with less expense, and with easily replaceable blades, and more folks than not often simply change them out rather than resharpening them. The heavier single bevels are, as a rule, heavier, made of possibly higher quality, tougher steel, and/or are much more expensive to produce in mass.

Like mentioned either will get the job done, and the choices out there are sometimes mind boggling with all the added hype and advertising. If you looked through most any of the big chain stores archery catalogs, they all claim to be the best. Bottom line is if "your happy" with the head you choose, and confident in the fact it will get the job done for you, when the time comes. Put any of them in the right spot and they will all do the job, albeit some slightly better. The tough part is getting them where they need to be.

For my uses the simple dual edged blades will suffice fine for now. This is of course until I come across that monster hog that soaks up one of my 600gr FMJ's tipped with the Slick Trick Magnum. If and when that happens all bets are off.

Big Boar · 08-28-2010, 08:41 AM

Some other thoughts

Why a dual edge? Because that is the way we alway did it and always sharpened our knives. Because the force is equal on both sides of the blade there is no twisting of the head.

Why a single edge? Ever think about why almost all wood working tools have a single edge grind? After thousands of years it must have been found to wedge out the chips most effectively and hold up the best. Not exactly the same thing we are trying to do with a broadhead except when we hit something like bone. Ashby's tests show this. However this kiind of grind does impart a twist to the head because one side has more surface area. I guess therefore one must be carefull to have the grind match the helical of the fletching. Don't want the arrow turning in one direction only to make it reverse direction when the head hits something like a shoulder blade.

Since I have been shooting Rocky Mountain Premier 100's since they can out about 17 years ago and do not intend changing until I use them all up, I will probably just stick with the dual grind that came on the blades.

Arrowds · 08-28-2010, 11:00 AM

Single bevel....by eliminating half of the molecular metal mass under the edge peak (Triangle cut in half)...you exponentially structurally weaken that edges ability to retain that sharp edge under duress. With a dual bevel...you promote leaving a gradient of metal mass expanding equally outward from the sharpest edge peak ( like a full triangle )...meaning you leave great molecular mass structural integrity underneath that edge to assist it absorbing greater pressure..yet not deform. Dual edge or bevel is easily a much stronger structural situation. Edge retention is important...I stress that these mechanical strength advantages can easily be seen provided you are testing like metals.
To assume the rotation of the broadhead is magically beneficial...dead was dead from shot to dirt exactly within the same time span/average distance traveled in my testing on live animals. No documentable difference to lethality.
In the end...I spent more time/money to produce a dual bevel razor wire due to the durability factor being so much better. That is the ONLY documentable difference I could determine from my testing in difference of single or dual bevel...Edge Retention Capacity...

Standing Bear · 08-28-2010, 11:30 AM

Matt, something I could add to the single bevel is this. By using the appropriate materials meaning stainless steel, you can increase the molecular mass and its strength by compounding its lattice structures through a process called cycle tempering. If you are talking about the majority of broadhead steels out there, yes I agree however by using the appropriate stainless steels, appropriate heat treat/cryo processes, the single bevel edge is as strong as the double bevel.

The only downfall of this technology is costs. Are the consumers willing to pay for the extra technologies that are being applied to the broadhead industry, unfortunately, I don't think so.

The other thing that strengthens a single bevel head is applying a compound bevel edge on it. By doing so, your increasing the edge support and allowing the molecular structure do its work.

Arriving to this stage takes alot of work. The technologies I am refering to are not new, they have simply been borrowed from other industries and applied to the broadhead world.

Thank you for adding your input on this subject, knowledge is something that has to be shared and this is the place to do this

Daniel

special · 08-31-2010, 12:23 AM

I love single bevels..they are easier to sharpen(once you get the hang of it)and keep their edge better.
They rotate heaps more as they enter a target and do huge damage to bone...Ive compared the amount of rotation into my practice butt..They rotate over 1/2 turn where double bevels dont make it 1/4 turn.

Ive been shooting the same Woodies Outback Supreme 125gn Single bevels for 3 years now(Woodwards)...they have seen hundreds of shots and they only ever need a quick swipe with a steel to bring back to a razor sharp edge..Ive never been able to achieve as sharp an edge with any other head...Or achieve the same longevity.

Big Boar · 08-31-2010, 03:41 AM

Arrowds
I guess I am confused because in my mind an angle is an angle, if it is the same angle (such as 30 degrees). If the force is applied bisecting the angle, isn't the underlying molecular structure of a single or dual edge exactly the same? Likewise if the force is applied perpendicular to one of the edges, isn't the durability of the edge exactly the same?

I understand your mention of a half triangle versus a full triangle but you are then talking about an angle that is not equal, with the half triangle being only half of the full. In otherwords 15 versus 30 in my above example. I don't think anyone would dispute the fact that the 15 degree angle would not hold up as well.

richa3md · 08-31-2010, 03:49 PM

When all of this science stuff comes down to the wire...it just has to work. There were bow hunters long before us that hunted with a stick and string with STONE points. This science is great and awesome but when it comes right down to it, The effectiveness of a broadhead should not be how much science was put into it. The effectiveness should relate to how ethically and quickly (talking about shot-placement too) you can take your game down. I am by no means saying science is not for the broadhead world. I am just giving my point of view of someone who really doesn't understand and a lot of the normal population wouldn't either. The norms of everything suggest that people of average intelligence , don't work with scientific properties or even with metal will just understand, either it works or it doesn't. Personally I like single bevel but that is my opinion.
Have a nice day!

Arrowds · 08-31-2010, 08:13 PM

Richa3md...well put and kind of the point I was trying to make...and I apologize but I'm just a bit long winded at times it seems...
The original question was "what was the advantages and disadvantages of"....they both kill equally well...yep..one rotates more than another....but after killing a ton of critters, there was NO documentable factor the single bevel added any "Lethality" to the equation...the only consistent result noticeable...edges were more easily/more deeply damanged than double bevel design. real caveman simple, in the woods/thru the animals type testing...same bow, same arrows...same shot distances, same shot angles...
I don't dispute the simple fact materials are able to provide more durable options...but that was not the original premise of the question...when it comes to delivering the death goodies...they both worked equally well.
JMHO...

Booner · 08-31-2010, 08:22 PM

I love the adult way this discussion is going. Thanks to each of you for providing your opinion with out bashing. What a great group of folks to talk this topic with.

Okie101 · 08-31-2010, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrowds

Richa3md...well put and kind of the point I was trying to make...and I apologize but I'm just a bit long winded at times it seems...

I guess I should apologize to you Matt...cause sometimes I swear it sounds like the teacher off of Charlie Brown teaching me on some of your posts...

I like what you bring on the other side of the table man... with meat still in the middle....

08-25-2010, 09:58 AM	#1 (permalink)
summitsitter Trial Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 3	Single bevel vs dual bevel What is the advantages and disadvantages of both?

08-26-2010, 03:11 PM	#2 (permalink)
Standing Bear Moderator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Northwest Territories, Canada Posts: 845	Wow, now that is a million dollar question and just to let you know, I feel like the sailor that is being pushed on the wooden plank waiting for his execution to happen by answering but hey, I have an extensive background when it comes with working with steel so I think I can give this one a shot I, myself, me and I alone want, did I already say "I" twice, have seen both types of edges and like both of them. The one thing that comes into play when dealing with single bevel edge is make sure you choose a high quality head that is made of good material. Due to the fact that the edge is much thinner, you need a harder material to help prevent both edge curling, bending and or fracturing. To use one is a matter of personnal preference and believe me, you have to shoot them to see what they can do. Here are the two top single bevel broadhead manufacturers that I have had the opportunity to work with by using and testing their heads: Red Feather Archery - Phoenix 150 grain Alaska Bowhunting Supply - Massai 150 grain When your talking about dual bevel broadheads, well, choose your pick because you have on this web site, as per with the single bevel broadheads, some of the top engineers in the world to deal with. I don't think you'll find any people on here that doesn't believe in this incredible industry and all are willing to help in anyway they can. And now to throw a third category in the loop, you need to take a long hard look at the Atom broadheads. Matthew, the man behind this incredible technology is an encyclopedia of knowledge when it comes to how his bevels work. Also, reality says some like and some don't like so its up to you to follow your instincts and please keep asking questions and don't be afraid to try things, that is what makes this place such a great place to be in and listen, enjoy yourself. I hope no one will let that plank go cause I can't swim !!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL In total respect of everyone participating on this web site. Daniel __________________ Authorized Athens Archery Dealer, Athens Factory Staff Shooter Swhacker Pro Staff

08-26-2010, 10:19 PM	#3 (permalink)
Okie101 Broadhead Tester Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,044	One advantage for me is...I can sharpen the single bevel easier than a dual... Another advantage is that the design of the single bevel is to twist more going thru the animal... I agree with Standing Bear...I like them both..and also what he said about the Atom... __________________ Athens Archery/ Whalens Hooker Releases/Sword Sights/LTL Acorn Outdoors

08-28-2010, 03:09 AM	#6 (permalink)
41mag 85gr Join Date: May 2010 Location: Republic of Texas Posts: 68	Well, I'm not nearly as knowledgable on the facts behind the differences as the above folks, but I will throw in on this for what it's worth. In looking at the two, or three as pointed out by Standing Bear, side by side, what will be immediately noticed is the differences in the angle on the edges. The single bevel blade will use more of the meat of the edge to produce the cutting surface so to speak than the dual bevel. What this results in is a much stronger edge on the blade. The easiest way to demonstrate this is to do a simple illustration. Take both hands, and roll your fingers into a light fist with your index finger pointing out. Now put both hands together with all your knuckles touching and your index fingers extended but the tips together. Should look something like the Church and steeple thing you might have done as a kid. Now with your index finger pointing straight up, this would represent a dual edged blade. Now rotate your hands to where your right finger is pointing straight up and your left is at around a 45 degree angle. While not quite exact, this would represent a single bevel edge. Still you can quickly see the differences in the meat, so to speak, behind the single bevel over the dual. While this might not result in a scalpel sharp edge, it can be sharpened to a darn close one, and it will hold up to a more abusive impact than the dual edge will. These are usually made for heavy bone, thick hide, and tough critters where maximum impact and penetration might be wanted and needed. Not that the dual edged blades aren't good for this as well, but most are made of much thinner material which enhances the ability to be sharpened more closely to the scalpel type edge. These are routinely used for lighter framed, thinner skinned critters that probably aren't going to eat you or stomp you into a muddy spot. While there is equal ability of each to penetrate most game, usually the lighter bladed heads carry the dual edges and are primarily sold to folks hunting deer or elk type game. They are made usually with less expense, and with easily replaceable blades, and more folks than not often simply change them out rather than resharpening them. The heavier single bevels are, as a rule, heavier, made of possibly higher quality, tougher steel, and/or are much more expensive to produce in mass. Like mentioned either will get the job done, and the choices out there are sometimes mind boggling with all the added hype and advertising. If you looked through most any of the big chain stores archery catalogs, they all claim to be the best. Bottom line is if "your happy" with the head you choose, and confident in the fact it will get the job done for you, when the time comes. Put any of them in the right spot and they will all do the job, albeit some slightly better. The tough part is getting them where they need to be. For my uses the simple dual edged blades will suffice fine for now. This is of course until I come across that monster hog that soaks up one of my 600gr FMJ's tipped with the Slick Trick Magnum. If and when that happens all bets are off. __________________ LAter, 41mag

08-28-2010, 11:30 AM	#9 (permalink)
Standing Bear Moderator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Northwest Territories, Canada Posts: 845	Matt, something I could add to the single bevel is this. By using the appropriate materials meaning stainless steel, you can increase the molecular mass and its strength by compounding its lattice structures through a process called cycle tempering. If you are talking about the majority of broadhead steels out there, yes I agree however by using the appropriate stainless steels, appropriate heat treat/cryo processes, the single bevel edge is as strong as the double bevel. The only downfall of this technology is costs. Are the consumers willing to pay for the extra technologies that are being applied to the broadhead industry, unfortunately, I don't think so. The other thing that strengthens a single bevel head is applying a compound bevel edge on it. By doing so, your increasing the edge support and allowing the molecular structure do its work. Arriving to this stage takes alot of work. The technologies I am refering to are not new, they have simply been borrowed from other industries and applied to the broadhead world. Thank you for adding your input on this subject, knowledge is something that has to be shared and this is the place to do this Daniel __________________ Authorized Athens Archery Dealer, Athens Factory Staff Shooter Swhacker Pro Staff

08-27-2010, 10:38 AM	#4 (permalink)
summitsitter Trial Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 3	Thanks guys..I was wondering why so many people where looking and nobody commenting..Thanks for the info..Looks like Red Feather here I come..I have 1 atom laying around I got from somewhere I'll have to give it a shot or two

08-27-2010, 05:08 PM	#5 (permalink)
Arrowds Broadhead Maker Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 173	Summitsitter.... yep......I've had the very good fortune to have some great conversations with Standing Bear on the subject of grind angle/single/double bevel....and I assure you...Standing Bear is a great teacher/student on the subject himself. His humbleness is as large as the Great North West Territories he resides within. I'm just a simple math dude...and my math plus testing on real critters... easily has me choosing double bevel over single. I just didn't witness the "Magical" results touted on the single in comparison to the double bevel efforts. Don't get me wrong...single bevel kills critters just as easily/good as double bevel...but I ask questions and look at the forensics... It's easy....when such discussions arise...you must consider the simple question first. What is the Statistical probability that the single bevel aspect actually delivers the lethal difference?...I'd have a better chance to pick the winning lottery ticket two times in a row....So..in the end....it's again...just a matter of personal preference...Just my humble opinion...

08-28-2010, 08:41 AM	#7 (permalink)
Big Boar 130gr Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin Posts: 492	Some other thoughts Why a dual edge? Because that is the way we alway did it and always sharpened our knives. Because the force is equal on both sides of the blade there is no twisting of the head. Why a single edge? Ever think about why almost all wood working tools have a single edge grind? After thousands of years it must have been found to wedge out the chips most effectively and hold up the best. Not exactly the same thing we are trying to do with a broadhead except when we hit something like bone. Ashby's tests show this. However this kiind of grind does impart a twist to the head because one side has more surface area. I guess therefore one must be carefull to have the grind match the helical of the fletching. Don't want the arrow turning in one direction only to make it reverse direction when the head hits something like a shoulder blade. Since I have been shooting Rocky Mountain Premier 100's since they can out about 17 years ago and do not intend changing until I use them all up, I will probably just stick with the dual grind that came on the blades.

08-28-2010, 11:00 AM	#8 (permalink)
Arrowds Broadhead Maker Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 173	Single bevel....by eliminating half of the molecular metal mass under the edge peak (Triangle cut in half)...you exponentially structurally weaken that edges ability to retain that sharp edge under duress. With a dual bevel...you promote leaving a gradient of metal mass expanding equally outward from the sharpest edge peak ( like a full triangle )...meaning you leave great molecular mass structural integrity underneath that edge to assist it absorbing greater pressure..yet not deform. Dual edge or bevel is easily a much stronger structural situation. Edge retention is important...I stress that these mechanical strength advantages can easily be seen provided you are testing like metals. To assume the rotation of the broadhead is magically beneficial...dead was dead from shot to dirt exactly within the same time span/average distance traveled in my testing on live animals. No documentable difference to lethality. In the end...I spent more time/money to produce a dual bevel razor wire due to the durability factor being so much better. That is the ONLY documentable difference I could determine from my testing in difference of single or dual bevel...Edge Retention Capacity...

08-31-2010, 12:23 AM	#10 (permalink)
special 85gr Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: NSW Highlands Australia Posts: 77	I love single bevels..they are easier to sharpen(once you get the hang of it)and keep their edge better. They rotate heaps more as they enter a target and do huge damage to bone...Ive compared the amount of rotation into my practice butt..They rotate over 1/2 turn where double bevels dont make it 1/4 turn. Ive been shooting the same Woodies Outback Supreme 125gn Single bevels for 3 years now(Woodwards)...they have seen hundreds of shots and they only ever need a quick swipe with a steel to bring back to a razor sharp edge..Ive never been able to achieve as sharp an edge with any other head...Or achieve the same longevity. __________________ Athens Archery Factory shooting Staff..Tenzone Archery Staff..Ripcord Staff..Vanetec Staff..Special Custom Bowstrings Staff.

08-31-2010, 03:41 AM	#11 (permalink)
Big Boar 130gr Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin Posts: 492	Arrowds I guess I am confused because in my mind an angle is an angle, if it is the same angle (such as 30 degrees). If the force is applied bisecting the angle, isn't the underlying molecular structure of a single or dual edge exactly the same? Likewise if the force is applied perpendicular to one of the edges, isn't the durability of the edge exactly the same? I understand your mention of a half triangle versus a full triangle but you are then talking about an angle that is not equal, with the half triangle being only half of the full. In otherwords 15 versus 30 in my above example. I don't think anyone would dispute the fact that the 15 degree angle would not hold up as well.

08-31-2010, 03:49 PM	#12 (permalink)
richa3md 130gr Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Mid Michigan Posts: 546	When all of this science stuff comes down to the wire...it just has to work. There were bow hunters long before us that hunted with a stick and string with STONE points. This science is great and awesome but when it comes right down to it, The effectiveness of a broadhead should not be how much science was put into it. The effectiveness should relate to how ethically and quickly (talking about shot-placement too) you can take your game down. I am by no means saying science is not for the broadhead world. I am just giving my point of view of someone who really doesn't understand and a lot of the normal population wouldn't either. The norms of everything suggest that people of average intelligence , don't work with scientific properties or even with metal will just understand, either it works or it doesn't. Personally I like single bevel but that is my opinion. Have a nice day! __________________ 09' PSE Super Short 29 in and 72.5# and 125 gr G5 Striker Magnum!!!

08-31-2010, 08:13 PM	#13 (permalink)
Arrowds Broadhead Maker Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 173	Richa3md...well put and kind of the point I was trying to make...and I apologize but I'm just a bit long winded at times it seems... The original question was "what was the advantages and disadvantages of"....they both kill equally well...yep..one rotates more than another....but after killing a ton of critters, there was NO documentable factor the single bevel added any "Lethality" to the equation...the only consistent result noticeable...edges were more easily/more deeply damanged than double bevel design. real caveman simple, in the woods/thru the animals type testing...same bow, same arrows...same shot distances, same shot angles... I don't dispute the simple fact materials are able to provide more durable options...but that was not the original premise of the question...when it comes to delivering the death goodies...they both worked equally well. JMHO...

08-31-2010, 08:22 PM	#14 (permalink)
Booner Administrator Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Arkansas USA Posts: 952	I love the adult way this discussion is going. Thanks to each of you for providing your opinion with out bashing. What a great group of folks to talk this topic with.

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