Is bigger better? - Page 3 -

PABowhunter4life · 01-20-2010, 06:32 PM

Bigger is better..........if your set up has the KE to push it. I am getting just shy of 90# of KE with a 457 grain arrow so I can pretty much shoot whatever I want at a deer without worrying about lack of penetration. For example, I pushed a 1 3/4" Extra Cut Reaper lengthwise through a 175 pound buck last fall and it didn't slow down until it hit the dirt. The problem arises when someone with low to moderate KE & a light arrow try to push a head with a 2" cutting diameter. You can preach all you want about "I shoot light arrows & blow Rage heads through elk", but the laws of physics don't lie & you are going to learn the hard way at some point that lighter arrows & big cutting heads don't match.

I would never sacrifice 2 holes for 1. I would prefer two 1" holes over one 2" hole any day of the week. So again, match the head to your set up & you won't have to worry about penetration

P.S. - I forgot to mention that the buck was @ 34 yards

KS-whitetail · 01-20-2010, 07:02 PM

I have shot a ton of heads over the past few years, I think that the bigger cut campaign is actually a bad thing. People think with that huge cut that they can force a shot that would be considered marginal and still recover the animal, which they may.. But that is not my idea of being an ethical hunter. I like the extra cut of a mechanical, but I like the durability of most fixed blades. I have shot deer with mechanical and fixed blades out of bows that ranged from 230-300fps. I think a lot of people check there Kinetic energy out of the bows at say 5 yards, but don't think about when they are shooting at a deer or whatever at 35-40yards. Its my opinion I could be absolutely wrong to some people.

Gerhard · 01-21-2010, 04:39 AM

This is a very interesting subject.

I personally dont hunt with mechanical broad heads so I can not give you my personal opinion.

I have a few friends that love hunting with mechanical broad heads like the rage and meat seeker broad heads.

Most of the times they do get pass troughs but then they also have a high KE set up.

I personally believe bigger is not better and would sacrifice bigger holes for better penetration as well as straight line penetration every time.

Booner · 01-21-2010, 07:31 AM

Having personal exp with them....straight line penetration is my ultimate goal. i am not so concerned with a "Complete" pass through as I am with good arrow flight and straight line penetration. Don't get me wrong...I prefer a pass through and strive for that....but if for some reason I do not get one I am not dropping the head. I think better function should be the focus on mechanicals vs. how wide can I get.

Red Feather Archery · 01-21-2010, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Booner

Having personal exp with them....straight line penetration is my ultimate goal. i am not so concerned with a "Complete" pass through as I am with good arrow flight and straight line penetration. Don't get me wrong...I prefer a pass through and strive for that....but if for some reason I do not get one I am not dropping the head. I think better function should be the focus on mechanicals vs. how wide can I get.

Good points. Arrow flight and penetration are directly related. I wonder how much of a broadheads poor performance can actually be attributed to poor arrow flight. What I mean by that is does the broadhead really have a chance to perform as it should if it isn't on the end of a true flying arrow? Could be the "scapegoat" of a lack of tuning on the part of the bowhunter.

Gerhard · 01-21-2010, 11:08 AM

A friend of mine bought a packet of mechanical broad heads.

He saw that the they claim on the packet that the broad head fly the same as field points...

So he did not shoot the broad head before he went hunting.

He had a shot at a good size warthog boar on 23 yards and let fly...

Big was his surprise that the arrow duck down and he just touched the warthog on the brisket...

He learned that you always have to make sure that you test the arrow flight of your broad head and you dont always believe everything you read on the packet...

I think a lot of guys dont get to tune their bows correctly even with mechanical broad heads, what now happens is that the arrow does not hit perfect and a lot of energy is lost in the angle that the arrow hit as well as the deployment of the mechanical blades...

kbp8928 · 01-21-2010, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lefty1984

I say beef up on the kinetic energy.... and let the big dawgs eat. I have shot 2 deer with my Athens (80lb draw) with Rage 2 blades, both were complete pass throughs, and both were only about 25 yard blood trails!

You gotta love it when you can watch them go down in sight! Also, keep in mind the smaller the cutting diameter the higher the error for margin is! What would be a marginal hit and a long tracking job with a muzzy, may be a good hit and very short blood trail with a Rage, Aftershock, Swacker.....ect. Having said all that, most important thing is to match the broadhead to your bows capabilities and get very comfortable and confident with whatever you choose!

beefing up on your kenetic is not always a sure pass through. before i got my accomplice i was hunting with my monster. 70#, 30" arrow is around 456 grns. that gives me right at 100# of kenetic energy. i shot a doe with a rage and did not have a pass through. i hit a tad forward. not it was not perfect but it still should have been a pass through in my book. with the same bow i shot 3 more deer, 1 hog and 2 turkeys. the other 3 deer were all pass throughs with the black tekans. the hog was shot with a buzzcut 4 blade, it went in just behind the shoulder and exited his head just above his right eye! the turkeys were shot with a rage 2 blade and a tekan. those did pass through. then i got my athens. it is 30", 74# with a 415 grn arrow. it shoots right around 315 fps and i think about 93# of kenetic energy. i shot another turkey this one was shot with a grim reaper.... pass through. i shot a hog with a rage. i hit him really good. did not get a pass through. dont get me wrong i love kenetic energy but even with a bunch of it does not mean pass through. almost every rage i have shot have also bent or broke. i am going to shoot the black tekans and the t3's this year along with buzzcuts! those are some strong heads!

Zwartkop · 01-21-2010, 09:27 PM

I'm shoot almost any b/h there is. but the last year or so i've bought mainly mechs.

i like a b/h that cut 2" (bigger blood trail) and it gives you a little bit more room for error on the shot placement.

Another thing i see some of you mentioned was straight line penetration.

If an arrow only penetrate 2/3 of the animal - isn't it enough penetration if your entry wound is big?

I also like to see my arrow hit the ground behind the animal but is it really necessary?

REG · 01-25-2010, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwartkop

I'm shoot almost any b/h there is. but the last year or so i've bought mainly mechs.

i like a b/h that cut 2" (bigger blood trail) and it gives you a little bit more room for error on the shot placement.

Another thing i see some of you mentioned was straight line penetration.

If an arrow only penetrate 2/3 of the animal - isn't it enough penetration if your entry wound is big?

I also like to see my arrow hit the ground behind the animal but is it really necessary?

Agree 100%. My next hunt will be with the new 2" meat seeker looks like an awesome head

Anewdefguitaris · 01-26-2012, 07:16 PM

I wondered all last spring/summer about buying mechanicals. but didn't know if my crossbow had the juice to give me a pass-thru. see last year I made my first bowkill. muzzy 3 blade. also tracked along with my dad who was using a 4 blade. the 4 blade left a CONSIDERABLY larger blood trail.

so this year I went with Slick Trick Mags. my doe had a 3 finger wide hole thru her with 2 dead center hit ribs - left blood as high as my stomach going down BOTH SIDES of the row of corn - and died what looked like on the run.

the way I see it - that was plenty! now who knows, maybe a big 2 blade mech would've blown thru with even more devastating results.... but maybe not!

2" on one side is still smaller than 1 1/8" on BOTH sides! and thats my 2 cents

UrbanDeerSlayer · 01-26-2012, 07:31 PM

This is a cool topic. Glad someone revived it. Anyway, I think if you have the KE you will do fine with the wide blade mechanicals. I'm shooting around 100 KE out of my crossbow, and I use heavier aluminum bolts to beef it up. I recently had a bone crushing pass through with Grim Reaper 2 inchers. THat being said, prior to going to a crossbow, I had very poor penetration with a Rage Broadhead shooting an old Parker Compound bow that was shooting around 45 KE.

At this point, I opt for the wider cutting mechanical that flies like a field tip. I like the security of getting a wider cut on a shot in case my aim is slightly off.

Dsotm223 · 01-27-2012, 11:40 AM

My biggest complaints about most mech heads is durability and dependability, that being said I don't shy away from them. I have always been the type of person that wants to try it all, and will gladly do so. However, I am a fixed blade guy, I would never shoot a mechanical into any animal larger than a white tail. Yes large cutting diameters help with marginal shots, but that large cutting diameter doesn't do you any good if the bh doesn't open. With a fixed blade I know what I see is what I get and having that comfort makes me feel better when I draw back on an animal. Id take a spiral wound channel like that produced with the RFA pheonix over a large two blade wound chanel any day of the week. I think companies need to focus more on the durability of their product than striving to put a massive cut in the animal. It seems to me duarbaility is something I keep seeing consistantly as well. Thats just my .02 though.

UrbanDeerSlayer · 01-27-2012, 02:03 PM

[QUOTE=Dsotm223;35219]My biggest complaints about most mech heads is durability and dependability, that being said I don't shy away from them. QUOTE]

I do see your point. The mechanicals do take alot of damage, and a few of them I question if they will open. The GR's open fine. But I'm holding a Pack of NAP FOC's (3 inch 2 blade mechanical) that seem to take quite a bit of force to open and am hesitant to use them. But I currently will take that risk to ensure my flight accuracy and to get the big wound channel and exit hole. But I will confess to owning a pack of fixed blade ST GrizzTrick2's that I'm dying to shoot, and will probably tune my bow to for a spring / summer hog hunt.

mudslinger · 01-30-2012, 05:25 PM

I probably have the KE to shoot any head I want, 89.89#'s KE with a 560 grain arrow so I do not think I would have a problem with penetration on a big cutting BH. With that being said, why do people not look at what really matters when it comes to penetration with a arrow/BH combination? KE just gives you a measurement found by a calculation where as MOMENTUM is what really matters when penetration matters. EVen though it is also found by numbers and calcualtions it is still what gives you the real truth in what an arrow has that allows it to have good penetraion. Good read here:

Arrow Kinetic Energy and Momentum: what they mean to the archer | Archery Report

UrbanDeerSlayer · 01-30-2012, 07:15 PM

I'm no physicist, but to simplify, both KE and momentum are related to the velocity that the arrow travels and the mass of the arrow itself. An increase in velocity and mass will result in higher KE and momentum. The difference is momentum increases more rapidly (versus KE) as the velocity and mass of the arrow increases. Penetration apparently is a result of momentum versus friction/resistance. Increasing your momentum will increase penetration. A smaller fixed blade broadhead will have more penetration than a larger mechanical broadhead (which will have greater resistance). This is complicated, and I just gave myself a headache............

01-20-2010, 06:32 PM	#31 (permalink)
PABowhunter4life 100gr Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 140	Bigger is better..........if your set up has the KE to push it. I am getting just shy of 90# of KE with a 457 grain arrow so I can pretty much shoot whatever I want at a deer without worrying about lack of penetration. For example, I pushed a 1 3/4" Extra Cut Reaper lengthwise through a 175 pound buck last fall and it didn't slow down until it hit the dirt. The problem arises when someone with low to moderate KE & a light arrow try to push a head with a 2" cutting diameter. You can preach all you want about "I shoot light arrows & blow Rage heads through elk", but the laws of physics don't lie & you are going to learn the hard way at some point that lighter arrows & big cutting heads don't match. I would never sacrifice 2 holes for 1. I would prefer two 1" holes over one 2" hole any day of the week. So again, match the head to your set up & you won't have to worry about penetration P.S. - I forgot to mention that the buck was @ 34 yards __________________ Athens Archery FS / Stealth Archery PS/ Bow Rattler PS / RiP Game Calls FS /Carbon Creations FS / Buck Addicts FS / BroadheadShed FS / Grim Reaper Broadhead FS Last edited by PABowhunter4life; 01-20-2010 at 09:20 PM.

01-21-2010, 04:39 AM	#33 (permalink)
Gerhard 145gr Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Johannesburg (South Africa) Posts: 692	This is a very interesting subject. I personally dont hunt with mechanical broad heads so I can not give you my personal opinion. I have a few friends that love hunting with mechanical broad heads like the rage and meat seeker broad heads. Most of the times they do get pass troughs but then they also have a high KE set up. I personally believe bigger is not better and would sacrifice bigger holes for better penetration as well as straight line penetration every time. __________________ Slick Trick Pro Staff, Broadheadtalk.com Field Staff

01-21-2010, 11:08 AM	#36 (permalink)
Gerhard 145gr Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Johannesburg (South Africa) Posts: 692	A friend of mine bought a packet of mechanical broad heads. He saw that the they claim on the packet that the broad head fly the same as field points... So he did not shoot the broad head before he went hunting. He had a shot at a good size warthog boar on 23 yards and let fly... Big was his surprise that the arrow duck down and he just touched the warthog on the brisket... He learned that you always have to make sure that you test the arrow flight of your broad head and you dont always believe everything you read on the packet... I think a lot of guys dont get to tune their bows correctly even with mechanical broad heads, what now happens is that the arrow does not hit perfect and a lot of energy is lost in the angle that the arrow hit as well as the deployment of the mechanical blades... __________________ Slick Trick Pro Staff, Broadheadtalk.com Field Staff

01-21-2010, 09:27 PM	#38 (permalink)
Zwartkop 85gr Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Zwartkop game farm Posts: 63	I'm shoot almost any b/h there is. but the last year or so i've bought mainly mechs. i like a b/h that cut 2" (bigger blood trail) and it gives you a little bit more room for error on the shot placement. Another thing i see some of you mentioned was straight line penetration. If an arrow only penetrate 2/3 of the animal - isn't it enough penetration if your entry wound is big? I also like to see my arrow hit the ground behind the animal but is it really necessary? __________________ I love all animals....

01-26-2012, 07:31 PM	#41 (permalink)
UrbanDeerSlayer 100gr Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 165	This is a cool topic. Glad someone revived it. Anyway, I think if you have the KE you will do fine with the wide blade mechanicals. I'm shooting around 100 KE out of my crossbow, and I use heavier aluminum bolts to beef it up. I recently had a bone crushing pass through with Grim Reaper 2 inchers. THat being said, prior to going to a crossbow, I had very poor penetration with a Rage Broadhead shooting an old Parker Compound bow that was shooting around 45 KE. At this point, I opt for the wider cutting mechanical that flies like a field tip. I like the security of getting a wider cut on a shot in case my aim is slightly off. __________________ Horton TRT Ultra-Lite 175 Crossbow 330 fps 104 KE 2" Grim Reaper Whitetail Specials "Courage is doing what you're afraid to do"

01-20-2010, 07:02 PM	#32 (permalink)
KS-whitetail 75gr Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Victoria, KS Posts: 21	I have shot a ton of heads over the past few years, I think that the bigger cut campaign is actually a bad thing. People think with that huge cut that they can force a shot that would be considered marginal and still recover the animal, which they may.. But that is not my idea of being an ethical hunter. I like the extra cut of a mechanical, but I like the durability of most fixed blades. I have shot deer with mechanical and fixed blades out of bows that ranged from 230-300fps. I think a lot of people check there Kinetic energy out of the bows at say 5 yards, but don't think about when they are shooting at a deer or whatever at 35-40yards. Its my opinion I could be absolutely wrong to some people.

01-21-2010, 07:31 AM	#34 (permalink)
Booner Administrator Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Arkansas USA Posts: 952	Having personal exp with them....straight line penetration is my ultimate goal. i am not so concerned with a "Complete" pass through as I am with good arrow flight and straight line penetration. Don't get me wrong...I prefer a pass through and strive for that....but if for some reason I do not get one I am not dropping the head. I think better function should be the focus on mechanicals vs. how wide can I get.

01-26-2012, 07:16 PM	#40 (permalink)
Anewdefguitaris 85gr Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 72	I wondered all last spring/summer about buying mechanicals. but didn't know if my crossbow had the juice to give me a pass-thru. see last year I made my first bowkill. muzzy 3 blade. also tracked along with my dad who was using a 4 blade. the 4 blade left a CONSIDERABLY larger blood trail. so this year I went with Slick Trick Mags. my doe had a 3 finger wide hole thru her with 2 dead center hit ribs - left blood as high as my stomach going down BOTH SIDES of the row of corn - and died what looked like on the run. the way I see it - that was plenty! now who knows, maybe a big 2 blade mech would've blown thru with even more devastating results.... but maybe not! 2" on one side is still smaller than 1 1/8" on BOTH sides! and thats my 2 cents

01-27-2012, 11:40 AM	#42 (permalink)
Dsotm223 125gr Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 373	My biggest complaints about most mech heads is durability and dependability, that being said I don't shy away from them. I have always been the type of person that wants to try it all, and will gladly do so. However, I am a fixed blade guy, I would never shoot a mechanical into any animal larger than a white tail. Yes large cutting diameters help with marginal shots, but that large cutting diameter doesn't do you any good if the bh doesn't open. With a fixed blade I know what I see is what I get and having that comfort makes me feel better when I draw back on an animal. Id take a spiral wound channel like that produced with the RFA pheonix over a large two blade wound chanel any day of the week. I think companies need to focus more on the durability of their product than striving to put a massive cut in the animal. It seems to me duarbaility is something I keep seeing consistantly as well. Thats just my .02 though. __________________ Bear Buckmaster BTR 60lbs @ 28" Gold Tip XT Hunters 342 - 392 grs. TR Revolution. Truglo Range Rover Adj.

01-27-2012, 02:03 PM	#43 (permalink)
UrbanDeerSlayer 100gr Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 165	[QUOTE=Dsotm223;35219]My biggest complaints about most mech heads is durability and dependability, that being said I don't shy away from them. QUOTE] I do see your point. The mechanicals do take alot of damage, and a few of them I question if they will open. The GR's open fine. But I'm holding a Pack of NAP FOC's (3 inch 2 blade mechanical) that seem to take quite a bit of force to open and am hesitant to use them. But I currently will take that risk to ensure my flight accuracy and to get the big wound channel and exit hole. But I will confess to owning a pack of fixed blade ST GrizzTrick2's that I'm dying to shoot, and will probably tune my bow to for a spring / summer hog hunt. __________________ Horton TRT Ultra-Lite 175 Crossbow 330 fps 104 KE 2" Grim Reaper Whitetail Specials "Courage is doing what you're afraid to do"

01-30-2012, 05:25 PM	#44 (permalink)
mudslinger 125gr Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 308	I probably have the KE to shoot any head I want, 89.89#'s KE with a 560 grain arrow so I do not think I would have a problem with penetration on a big cutting BH. With that being said, why do people not look at what really matters when it comes to penetration with a arrow/BH combination? KE just gives you a measurement found by a calculation where as MOMENTUM is what really matters when penetration matters. EVen though it is also found by numbers and calcualtions it is still what gives you the real truth in what an arrow has that allows it to have good penetraion. Good read here: Arrow Kinetic Energy and Momentum: what they mean to the archer \| Archery Report __________________ 09 HCA Speed Pro 29" 70# Gold Tip XT Hunter 28" @560 grains Smoke Ramcats!

01-30-2012, 07:15 PM	#45 (permalink)
UrbanDeerSlayer 100gr Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 165	I'm no physicist, but to simplify, both KE and momentum are related to the velocity that the arrow travels and the mass of the arrow itself. An increase in velocity and mass will result in higher KE and momentum. The difference is momentum increases more rapidly (versus KE) as the velocity and mass of the arrow increases. Penetration apparently is a result of momentum versus friction/resistance. Increasing your momentum will increase penetration. A smaller fixed blade broadhead will have more penetration than a larger mechanical broadhead (which will have greater resistance). This is complicated, and I just gave myself a headache............ __________________ Horton TRT Ultra-Lite 175 Crossbow 330 fps 104 KE 2" Grim Reaper Whitetail Specials "Courage is doing what you're afraid to do"

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